Back in 2009, I wrote a post entitled, “Where to go to seminary? A preliminary comparison between seminaries in Canada, the United States, and Korea.”
Since then, a lot of things have changed – especially my outlook regarding seminary and the usefulness of theological education. I touched on that topic briefly in my post, “The Future of Seminary.”
Well, after viewing some activity over those two previous posts, I thought I’d give my view as to where I think the future of seminary education is heading by explaining where I’m at. Namely, why I ditched the M.Div (Masters of Divinity) and am still a pastor.
Here it is…
Education is not something that begins and ends with a degree.
As a result, my approach to seminary has been quite different than that of others. Here’s my story.
After completing my bachelors, I was planning to do what everyone told me I had to do to be a pastor – the full time M.Div. However, upon admission to the M.Div at Regent, I was given the opportunity to be a summer intern pastor in Ottawa. Afterward, I was then presented with the opportunity to be the youth pastor at a missional church in Montreal. Thus began my path off the traditional format of seminary. While continuing ministry and also doing Regent via distance education, I kept on feeling pressure to quickly complete my M.Div. As a result, knowing that distance courses alone can’t satisfy residential requirements for an M.Div, I transferred to Gordon-Conwell and began driving to campus weekly. However, it was not too long after I began driving that I felt the heavy strain that it was taking on my responsibilities.
I was then presented with an opportunity to move to Seoul, Korea to be the English Ministry Youth Pastor within one of the largest churches in the world. Plus, there was a recognized English seminary in Seoul. As a result, through much discernment, my wife and I decided to move and transfer schools.
While studying for my M.Div, I always felt like there was a disconnect between my studies and passions.
I had a passion to engage culture, reach the lost, and plant churches, but I felt like the M.Div was preparing me for ministry in the 20th, rather than the 21st century.
When I first came across the M.A. in Global Leadership at Fuller years ago, I immediately felt like a refreshing wave had just hit me. Not only have I always wanted to study at Fuller, but by doing the MAGL, I would get the specific training for ministry that I needed. Also, I wouldn’t have to spend ridiculous amounts of time and money to meet the residential requirements. However, I didn’t feel like I could apply to the program because of the pressure that I felt from others to do the M.Div.
It was not until an unfortunate situation in Korea – where because of church politics my wife and I ended up moving back to Canada – that God shattered Saul’s armor off of me. I finally realized that the M.Div isn’t some magical degree that will qualify me to be a pastor. God had already called me and anointed me as a pastor, regardless of an M.Div!
Once my eyes were opened, I immediately came back to the MAGL because I realized that seminary education should come alongside, empower, and set one free to do the work of ministry, rather than hinder one to do so until one finishes all the requirements and gets a piece of paper.
Now that’s a glimse into why I ditched the M.Div and am still a pastor.
You should’ve stayed at Regent 😛
hahaha. are you enjoying your studies there?
Regent’s a great school, as are all the others you mentioned.
Funny, I just finished the mDiv there. I concede: it’s not for everyone.
Did you consider their MCS? I think it’s a great degree as well, wired for different purposes…
Hey Wayne, I totally agree that Regent is a great school. If I was living in Vancouver, then I would definitely attend Regent, but that’s not the case 🙂
I did consider the MCS, but the problem is it’s not as global, missional, and collaboratively minded as the MAGL from Fuller
Had no doubt that you were a pastor Sangi. You didn’t need the M. Div to qualify you. Your maturity and insight is not something to be learned at school. In the school of life and journey with the Lord in your own relationship with him and others, God will continue to lead you what you are meant for.
All the best at Fuller!
Some denominations still require an MDiv. There is always the question of will you be properly equipped without the degree to questions related to theology as opposed to the all too common blend of life coach and therapy that dominates Christian bookshelves today. Should a pastor also be a scholar? I would argue yes.
Hey Brian,
It’s true that some denominations still require the MDiv. However, what seems to be behind your comment is that theological preparation can only come through formal education, namely the MDiv. On that point, I would disagree with you. If you were to line up a whole boat load of MDiv grads, and then quiz them on theological matters with others who received their theological training via another degree or even through self study, I guarantee you that the tables won’t be in complete favor for the MDiv grads.
Now having said that, I’m not totally against the MDiv, it just wasn’ the degree for me.
I believe that God prepares the called, and the preparation isn’t always via formal education, like many Westerners would presume so.
Did the disciples receive their training via the MDiv? No’p. And they weren’t scholars. Yet, God used them profoundly.
Those are my two cents 🙂
What do you think?
If one were to obtain a MA anywhere else but a Christian school, one would I believe rightly assume you are training yourself to be a leader in the global business arena; a global MBA comes to mind honestly. Now, because you are obtaining this at Fuller, I presume there will be faith and ministry context discussed, in a global perspective. Do you aspire to work in global ministry, BGEA style, or did you pursue this because of your travels?
I am not saying that an MDiv is necessary for the pastoral role, although it is the ordination standard. Rather, what I wonder is, are you being equipped to answer the tough questions that come as part of the pastoral position? A pastor is also the teacher and spiritual protector of the flock he has been given by God. A pastor is really in the business (I loathe using that word in faith discussions) of soul wining. I do believe there is also some truth in what you say re learned laypeople vs seminary grads. A learned layperson can learn a decent quantity via self study and discussing things with other Christian education students.
Great points Brian. I appreciate your thoughts.
In response to the Fuller MA in Global Leadership. It’s a degree intended to train one to be a missional leader in whichever context one finds oneself in. Whether it be on the missions field out of North America, or within the missions field of North America. I wanted to pursue this degree because I felt like the M.Div was too general in scope. I’m saying this having completed nearly half of my M.Div, including Hebrew and Greek.
So my goal is church planting. Honestly, the M.Div does not prepare me for church planting, whereas, this degree is.
In relation to the theological and ethical issues one will face on a daily basis in ministry, one does not need a M.Div to answer them. All one needs is the Holy Spirit, an ability to listen, a desire to learn, and access to a good library.
And plus, even the Association of Theological Schools would probably admit that their requirements for the M.Div curriculum is pretty outdated.
I firmly believe that the M.Div won’t prepare anyone for ministry in the 21st century. It prepared people well for ministry in the 20th. But in order to reach out to a post Christian, agnostic yet spiritualistic society, the M.Div just won’t do.
If one were to obtain a MA anywhere else but a Christian school, one would I believe rightly assume you are training yourself to be a leader in the global business arena; a global MBA comes to mind honestly. Now, because you are obtaining this at Fuller, I presume there will be faith and ministry context discussed, in a global perspective. Do you aspire to work in global ministry, BGEA style, or did you pursue this because of your travels?
I am not saying that an MDiv is necessary for the pastoral role, although it is the ordination standard. Rather, what I wonder is, are you being equipped to answer the tough questions that come as part of the pastoral position? A pastor is also the teacher and spiritual protector of the flock he has been given by God. A pastor is really in the business (I loathe using that word in faith discussions) of soul wining. I do believe there is also some truth in what you say re learned laypeople vs seminary grads. A learned layperson can learn a decent quantity via self study and discussing things with other Christian education students.
As a young woman entering an MDiv. program now, I can already see that the MDiv. program may not be for everyone. Particularly if your calling is not to be the pastor of an established pastor – a theological MA program may give you better preparation. I do think some sort of theological education should be pursued ideally while pursuing practical learning experiences and apprenticeships. In my denomination, an MDiv. and practical learning experiences are required for ordination. While an MDiv. may not work for everyones needs, I’d hardly say that it is the wrong choice for everyone, for many people that “traditional” theological education is exactly what they need.
Self-Correcting: “Particularly if you calling is not to be the pastor of an established *church*”
Thanks for your first hand experience! I also agree that it’s not the wrong choice for everyone, my only gripe is that they change the curriculum of what MDiv’s should look like to make it more practical for individuals called to ministry
The M.Div is one of the largest shams ever perpetrated upon the Church; a carry-over from Romanism that we just can’t seem to grow out of because it is just too large and ingrained into our understanding of the many incorrect notions of what the world says Church is supposed to be like. The seminary industry, which bows and serves its true master which is the secular education system, is a profit driven mess of liberalism and snobbery. There is simply no way one can justify to me spending tens of thousands of dollars to obtain a piece of paper to show the government and beg for “ordination” so one can be acknowledged by the government as being qualified to serve God. What a joke, it is no wonder the Church struggles with lack of focus and leadership. I have several fiends who are M.Div grads, good friends too. Their student debt is a boat anchor around their necks, and the expectations upon them are ridiculous to say the least. And what are they doing that I am not? I have no M.Div and yet I am involved with serving, teaching and leading in most areas that they are. The difference is that at the end of the day the Lord provides for me and mine through employment in the real world, not in the industry that has penetrated the Church to it’s core.
Do yourself a favour Daniel, stop trying to appease man and simply serve God. Get an education in something that you can provide for your family with. The M.Div is a denominational brain washing tool meant to separate well meaning young people from their $$$
Besides, from what you have written in other posts I believe you are more then adequately gifted, both intellectually and motivationally, to do great things for the Lord in this world if you just keep your focus on him and him alone.
Hey Just,
I appreciate your passion. However, I think there is danger to go too far on one side of the spectrum. The M.Div has benefited many people – including many that I personally know. The only gripe I have with the M.Div is that it seems to be preparing people for ministry in the 20th century, rather than ministry in the 21st.
I also went the same route – started with an MDiv, moved to Africa for ministry purposes, and eventually ended up doing Fuller’s MAGL while involved in Christian leadership development in South Africa. For me, it was just right, facilitating some major worldview shifts that greatly enhanced the effectiveness of our training and networking ministry here in Africa. I have stayed in touch with many of our professors and cohort members. For those with a commitment to lifelong learning and a missional passion in todays’ increasingly complex world, it is definitely worth prayerful consideration. I have continued the learning process and am now in my final year of PhD studies at South Africa Theological Semiinary, focusing on church-based leadership training in Africa. When it comes to advanced studies, it is important to be led by the Spirit. God knows what we need to become who He has called us to be and to do what He has called to do. I know some amazingly gifted people in ministry who never took a course, as well as some amazing scholars who are real gifts to the Body of Christ. We each have our own race and need to pay attention to what the Lord is saying to us. In addtion, local church leaders need to take more responsibility in facilitating authentic discipleship and equipping people for ministry.
That’s really neat to hear! It’s great to meet a fellow ex-MDiv”er” and MAGL”er.” I appreciate your thoughts on ministry and you emphasis on being led by the Spirit. There is no doubt that the Spirit needs to be at the forefront for leadership. Which cohort were you?
I was in Team Thirst. I think we were the third cohort. I see that they are on 26! I was also a TA for three other cohorts with Elaine Vaden.
That’s great! haha. I am on cohort 24. We are Kairos.
I’m a 50 year old truck driver and I feel the nudging of the Holy Spirit to step out of driving into teaching within the Christian realm. I’ve been over a small group or house church for about 7 years and am told I do a great job. I have been told I’m a good instructor for the different jobs I’ve had. I was considering an Mdiv, due to the fact I don’t feel the pastorial call. Maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree. What do you think?
Hey Larry
Great to hear from you!
The Mdiv is a considerable feat to take on if you don’t have a clear calling to ministry yet. My advice would be to perhaps audit a course at a local seminary or perhaps even to check out some of the free courses online through reformed theological seminary or some of the other ones on iTunes U.
Where do you live?
The other important factor is to make sure that you don’t ever look to a degree to give you confirmation yea or nea as to what your next steps are. I think the financial burden is too high to leave it to professors and the formal educational system to determine that for you.
Another option is to consider an internship or more intentional volunteering towards greater leadership positions in your local church. What would it look like if you had more experience leading leaders?
I think faithfully following God’s calling and guidance is more important and empowering than any degree or program. Mark Driscoll has an MA rather than an M. Div, and he’s an effective pastor to say the least. I appreciate your blogging Daniel, I came across your blog comparing Regent, Gordon-Conwell, and Torch Trinity when I was considering applying to Torch. It was very helpful because I wanted to go to Regent originally. I’ll keep checking on your blogs for more helpful insights. I wish you all the best for you, your family and ministries!
Hi Chris, I definitely agree with you that following God’s calling is the ultimate way that we need to live. Yes, we can use human wisdom and advice to try to figure out what the best or strategic “paths” are to a particular end goal, but in the end, God can close those doors, or open up other ones if he chose to.
I’m glad that I was able to help you make your decision!
Blessings to you too as well 🙂
The MDIV is helpful for several reasons if you want to be a Chaplin or pursue a PHD or Dmin. Also other denominations require that one has the MDIV to Pastor a Church so it just depends on a person’s call and interest. I think that seminary is great even though politics, financial burden, and stress is involved
If you look at the degree as a means to getting to an end, like being ordained or getting a D.min, then it’s definitely something you can pursue. However, if you are considering it as a way to be equipped to do ministry today, then there are better options out there that are a lot more relevant.
Daniel,
I continue to enjoy gleaning valuable wisdom from your blog, and hope now that you can offer me a bit of advice. I am about to complete my undergraduate study in Biblical Theology and Philosophy, and all I have ever wanted to do is serve in a church. As would be expected, many of my professors have suggested an MDiv, and have cautioned against an MA. Obviously, to a recent college grad with enough debt already, an MA is far more appealing, and allows me the opportunity to move on in ministry quicker. I don’t know if that is a naive way of thinking. Any advice you have (given your limited understanding of my situtation) would be wonderful.
Stephen
Hey Stephen,
It’s great to hear you! Congratulations on your undergraduate studies. What an accomplishment 🙂
While an M.Div is an okay degree, I wouldn’t recommend it for someone who has done an undergrad in Biblical Theology. Instead, I would recommend you looking for a ministry position upon graduation and begin serving as a pastor. Then, while you are serving, or years later, you could then look at further education if you need it.
My concern about going straight into an M.Div after your particular degree is that you are going to be that much more separated from the real world and the real concerns that people have. Instead, if you get into ministry now, you’ll know the areas you need to grow in after a few years, and then get specialized education if needed.
Denominations like the C&MA, EMCC, PAOC, and the Baptists don’t generally require an M.Div for accreditation. It’s more the mainline denominations that require the M.Div to even serve as a pastor. So your denominational affiliation also affects the decision.
I hope this helps. I’d love to continue dialoguing with you about this.
Blessings
Just stumbled across your blog. You mention several times: “I felt like the M.Div was preparing me for ministry in the 20th, rather than the 21st century.” I’m afraid I’m not sure what that means… Does it teach outdated skills? Or is it more that it doesn’t cover some topics you think essential. What are these skills and topics? Also if one could go anywhere in the US/world? What programs do you think best prepare someone to understand and articulate the christian faith?
Hey Daniel,
Thanks for your ministry. I just ran across your blog. I also ditched the Mdiv long time ago. I got an MA in Religion from TEDS. However, while youth pastoring at a Korean church (though I’m African American), I kept getting asked to go back and finish the Mdiv. I kept saying I didn’t have any money. Finally, the founding pastor decided to find me some support and I went back to seminary, but instead of the MDiv, I finished the MRE (at Liberty online). At that point in ministry, I couldn’t bare taking classes I wasn’t interested in. I knew the skills I wanted to develop and the MRE gave me those classes (Marriage counseling, small groups, OT classes, etc.). However, after serving now for 12 years in pastoral ministry, some times people still look at me crazy like, “You don’t have an MDiv?” With that said, not having an MDiv has closed some doors. I am a Navy Reserve chaplain while pastoring at a university/church in Korea. However, I tried to enter Air Force Chaplaincy, and they were really strict–they would not take me without the MDiv (or one degree with 72 hrs or over). So not having the MDiv has closed some doors. I’ve also noticed that some adjunct Bible college positions will not accept a person without an MDiv, ThM or higher.
I wonder your thoughts on this: Do you feel pressured to get a terminal degree–a Dmin or a PhD? Maybe, cause I live in Korea, maybe because I work at a University, or maybe its just God, I feel an unspoken pressure to finish up. The problem is at this point, I don’t think further formal education will teach me much. I learn better through books (or writing as a ministry). Going further feels like I am just getting a credential to open more doors–Bible college or university positions. I feel called to the pastorate but I enjoy the university. I probably want to at least stay in an adjunct position long term. Like the MDiv before, I have wrestled with a terminal degree for years. I dropped out of the TEDS Dmin when moving to Korea, dropped out of the Tennessee Temple Dmin because my work load in Korea was too much. Dropped out of the Torch Trinity PhD because I had a baby and wanted to be present. I did complete an unaccredited PhD at Louisiana Baptist University which I really enjoyed. It was self-paced and a lot of the writing didn’t have to be academic. In fact, I turned two of my classes into published books. However, the degree doesn’t have much utility, and I still wrestle with whether God wants me to finish up.
Please throw up a prayer for me. I am currently applying for one last program–I’ll start sometime this year. I’ll only take classes in the summer and winter when my load is less. My first class will be a trial. I’m hoping God will confirm going forward or confirm letting it go for good. I am certainly OK with ditching the terminal degree plan as well, but I’m going to give it one more shot before I close that door.
Let me know if you’ve wrestled with the thought of a terminal degree. Thanks again for your ministry.
Blessings,
Hey Gregory,
Thanks for your thoughts. It definitely seems like you’ve wrestled through this one quite a bit 🙂
It looks like your questions and tensions are all centered around the academia and other positions where particular degrees are required. Pastoral ministry is definitely different than academics. High church denominations will often require more formal education than low church denominations. However, all accredited institutions have to abide by particular guidelines, which requires their professors to have terminal degrees.
It seems like this is an issue of where you ultimately feel God is calling you serve, and in what capacity? If you feel like its the academia, then there really isn’t another choice, but if it’s the church, then I’d encourage you to faithfully serve, grow, and learn. Positions will eventually open up if you prove to be faithful as a pastor 🙂
The other thing to consider is whether or not you love teaching in general or teaching in a university, bible college, or seminary setting. There are tons of opportunities for you to train pastors outside of a formal academic setting.
Hope that was helpful.
Daniel,
I am so glad I found your blog. I appreciate your honesty and your integrity as a person and as a servant of God. My questions to you would be coming from a different angle, would really appreciate your frankness.
1. Is it possible to do PhD program and still be a full time effective pastor?
2. Or do you suggest one should take a Sabbatical and get sponsors to support financially?
The reason I am asking is our new pastor is being a “full-time” student and to our chagrin, hardly a pastor. It seems like the only thing he does is preach sermons not even weekly. He does not really show up on any other church events, and is often gone out of town with his young family after church even on the Sabbath he preaches. He does not lead us. We are like lost sheeps without a shepherd. He told us he is not going to start any ministries, but would support it if someone wants to start something. We wonder why we even have a pastor, seriously. It seems like he does not care. Many are deeply concerned, some are even discouraged. As you can expect, much complaints from all levels. Consequently, attendance has dropped. There is nothing new even after more than a year. What should we do? Yes, we have been praying diligently.
TT
That’s great, Daniel. I agree with your realization, that you were called and whether or not you obtain an M. Div. is truly not what makes you a pastor. I am feeling the calling to go into ministry after spending years obtaining my engineering degree. I want to start doing small things at my local church and go to school inline to really deepen my knowledge of the Word. Unsure if I should go for the MA or MDiv, I will pray much about it and see what God wants me to do. I am sure he really doesn’t ‘need’ me to get an advanced degree to spread the gospel, but I do want the masters degree for formalized theology education. Best to you, Daniel!!
Thanks for the encouragement Chuck. Getting a formal theological degree is definitely recommended! But I’d encourage you to do it Part Time and while serving at your church! That’s the best way to integrate what you learn into a real ministry context.
I agree Daniel. After the first semester of my seminary experience, I was a bit disillusioned. I had been in ministry part and full time before seminary and I had already banked a BA in religion at a Baptist university. I wrote a 12 page alternate plan to my parents, since they were picking up the tab. The plan with the cover title “Why I should not go to seminary: Don’t Panic” outlined a two-pronged idea to: 1. Intern under 2 of the best youth ministers in the country (one year each) and 2. Report to a group of mentors regarding what I was studying on my own in areas where I specifically knew I needed to grow. My parents were pretty adamant that I go the “degree” route and I honored their wishes. I think it would have been the right move to make but I did meet some great friends at seminary and my wife, so there’s that!
Hey Jon, thanks for taking the time to write this.
While I didn’t graduate with an M.Div, I am still grateful that I finished seminary with a degree. Since then, I’ve continued to learn and grow, since that really is a life-long endeavor.